On 7/23/07, (Anonymous) wrote:

(Member requested that messagfe be withdrawn for privacy reasons.)

Reply:

Dear (Anonymous):

There is another Meetup Organizers Group on Yahoo. http://groups.yahoo.c...
They number in the hundreds, so they are more effective than mine. Since the same effort is already being produced elsewhere, I think the Prayer Group will be more effective. Naturally, you are free to leave, and so is everybody else.

Why do I need to worry about this group being labeled a "Christian Conservative" one? Ron Paul is a Christian - and a conservative. Big deal. I am only finding ways in which I can use my time and resources most effectively, and in my mind, this is it.

You can, of course, encourage people to leave. It makes no difference. I'm not playing a numbers game, and I'm not in competition with anyone on a numbers basis. However, you may want to hang around just out of sheer curiosity. You appear to have a certain image of what a "Christian" is in your mind. You may just find that it isn't accurate.

Because of that, I want to leave you with this thought:

What type of society do you think is better able to live in liberty: One mostly made up of people with internal restraints on bad behavior - or one that relies on external restraints?

The one made up of people with internal restraints needs very little external ones (i.e., cops on every corner). The less people of that sort there are, the more the need for external restraints arises. That's why those who want to rule us and install a global police state launched this war on Christianity that we are witnessing. Christianity makes their "new system" entirely unnecessary.

On the other hand, what you label "Christian conservatives" ("CCs) has been totally co-opted by Neocons. The CCs have swallowed the line that Islam in itself is a threat that is so bad that "excuses" must be made for allowing the government in general (and neocons in particular) to go outside the powers given to our government by the Constitution. It's just another "lesser evil" argument, except that it isn't attached to personalities but to entire religions. The argument goes: "Islam is so evil, it's okay for "us" (as if Neocons were real Christians) to be a little bit evil so we can defeat them.

Hence, the birth of the anti-Christian doctrine of preemptive war (and now preemptive law-enforcement, as with Bush's executive order stripping war protesters of all property rights).

Many fell for that BS, but many are becoming ever more distrustful of that line, now that Bush is beginning to show his true face with ever more abandon.

But Bush is far from alone in this. He is surrounded and financed by the most powerful people of the planet, namely those who run the entire financial system, the media, the US military industrial complex, and who normally supply all the leadership "talent" (to use the word lightly) in the upper echelons of politics.

Against them, another little Meetup organizers group is a very ineffective weapon. A focused prayer group, on the other hand, is a very powerful one. There is nothing they can do against us. They simply have no weapons to oppose us.

I used to be very much opposed to what I thought Christianity was, until I heard somebody make that point above about internal and external restraints. That got me thinking. What I was really opposed to were the "holier than thou" Christians - and I still am. But they do not represent Christianity. Eventually, I ran out of reasons for not becoming a Christian myself.

Today, it would be just as incorrect to confuse the image most people have of knee-jerk "conservative Christians" - with Christianity itself.

I wish you the best of luck and success in whatever you decide to do.

Alex.

Hi Folks,

Hello friends and fellow lovers of liberty,

Just to chime in with my two cents for whatever that is worth...

I'm really glad to see that this discussion has begun and I commend Alex for renaming the group and thus providing a vehicle for us to chat.

I'm not a Christian, but I will happily pray with you. We should all be praying or meditating or just simply taking time to reflect in whatever way is appropriate to our own individual spiritualities and/or philosophies that we can come together as one people and put these bogus group labels behind us.

Our 'conservative' or 'constitutionalist' brothers and sisters are more likely to be Christians (right wing libertarian). Our 'libertarian' or 'objectivist' brothers and sisters are likely to be agnostic or atheist (left wing libertarian). Please allow me to chime in from a centrist libertarian perspective in the hopes we use this discussion to become stronger rather than to divide and collapse as a movement.

We are all individuals and some of us hold religious beliefs and some of us do not. The socialists have done much to divide us into little groups with these labels and set us against one another. I don't recognize Alex as a 'conservative christian', but as my new friend, an individual. Alex has lots of knowledge and varied interests.

Each individual is shaped by the background they were born into and the experiences they've had since birth. For each of us, this path has been different and thus has yielded different ways of expressing ourselves. It is possible that we are all very similar in our beliefs but that we merely have developed different ways of perceiving and expressing them. What is important is that we seek virtue. Being part of a religion or accepting a philosophy is no measure of how well it is followed or whether it is used as a vehicle to achieve virtue for oneself. Any dogma can be (mis) used for personal vanity.

Alex makes a good point about internal and external restraints but I believe this has more to do with individual virtue rather than morality. Morality develops socially whereas virtue is an individual concept. There is a difference surely between these two and virtuous people needn't be a part of one religion or another. If one find reinforcement of virtue through religion, this is wonderful. It is true that we wish to foster virtue and individuation in people so that we have better citizens and a more just society.

Why not broaden our horizons and experience things that are alien to ourselves that we might learn to better know and love our neighbors?

I will learn pray with this group using my own voice and perspective, united with yours, for peace and liberty. We must see how our diversity of opinions and backgrounds is a great strength and not a weakness though it does require the challenge of inquiry and keeping an open mind. This can however be greatly rewarding on a personal level.

As Jefferson so wisely said, "It does me no harm if my neighbor says there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Let's keep this discussion open so we can learn from each other. Let's not divide along lines of religious belief because when we do, we play into the hands of socialists and allow their little psycology game to deprive us of our individual identity and all the rights which spring forth from such an identity.

- Rob

From Chris:

To whom it may concern,
Meetup Organizers can start 3 groups for free. Why is it necessary to change the name of the group? You can start another group for that purpose of prayer. I am a Christian but I think that you are alienating supporters who do not think along these lines. I like the idea of the group but I don't like the idea that you changed the name of this group without consulting people. I would never do that to my Meetup group. We are a coalition of supporters from all walks of life and political leanings . I think you should change the name back and then start another group with that purpose. You will still have one left over. When you cause unneeded controversy, that totally is non-productive. We know who the author of chaos and confusion is, so why would you want to cause chaos and confusion?

Hi Chris:

My 3 groups are used up, so used htis one for the prayer network. Not that much has happened here as a Meetup Organizers' group, so I changed it. If anyone has a Meetup left on this list, he or she can re-start the World Wide Organizers Meetup and those who think that was an effective group can join it and either leave this one or stay with it.

What I am doing has very little effect on RP Meetups in general. Nobody will be alienated from their own Meetup group, and no leader will stop being one because of this name change. Whatever little confusion may arise from this will be very minor as it will affect only 66 organizers out of more than 550 at this time, and it's not like these 66 suddenly lost their focus on life or on the Ron Paul candidacy because I turned this into a prayer group.

As to what Rob said, I totally agree. I am only making suggestions as to what I think is the most effective way of communicating with God. Nobody needs to go along with that, necessarily. Just because I think one suggestion is more effective than another does not need to "alienate" anyone.

What I do think, though, is that the founders recognized that our Freedom comes from a source higher than any human institution. It is to that source that I am addressing this Meetup, and it is that source I am asking for help. Those who want to join me in that can. That's really all therre is to it.

What went on here was never the "nerve center" of the Meetup universe, so by changing the focus, very little damage is done, in my view. Those who think there needs to be an Organizers group can start one and continue its business. Nothing is lost - but in my eyes at least, a lot is gained.

(One last suggestion: I really think this discussion should be moved over to the Message Board. I will copy this discussion over there, and we should reply to each other there.)

All the Best,
Alex

From Maryanne:

Another two cents....


I don't consider myself a member of any organized religion. I consider myself an individual who freely expressess her spirituality through connection with the rest of the universe whether that is through the word "prayer", "meditation". or whatever word you choose to call it. The words aren't important.

With that said, I agree with Rob and Alex that a group to support the spirituality of this movement is a positive thing. Spiritual, not necessarily religious.

Each of us has the ability to change our perspective at any time as our knowledge increases. By taking the positive stand of a peaceful world with everyone elevated to the best they can be is a noble cause. To me, Ron Paul stands for truth and he stands for that peaceful world. I hope no one is too quick to judge anything that is positive for this movement and expresses love for mankind. We are all connected to one another and to this planet-let's make it the best we can make it.

Mother Theresa said," I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."

In grateful acknowledgement to the peace keepers,

Shining light into the darkness,

Maryanne

The name change was hasty and the points made about changing it arbitrarily without discussion are totally valid. That said, I think it created an unexpected opportunity for us. I expected religion to come up sooner or later as a topic of debate in this presidential campaign. Ron Paul appeals to a very wide group of people.

The democrat machine is all geared up to make-up their candidates to appear pious and reverent. What a show.
Why do people fall for this stuff?

It is a blessing to have this discussion originate amongst ourselves though rather than it be imposed from the outside. We're the meetup coordinators, the grassroots leadership. We can sieze this as an opportunity rather than see it as negative. Chaos and confusion are sadly the nature of reality in this world. True conviction is immune to being led away from truth.

A society may only call itself free when individuals respect each other's differences and allow each person to seek truth for themselves in their own way. Are we ready for Dr. Paul's message? Are we capable of handling liberty and the responsibilities it places on us? Can civic virtue be restored after it has been lost? If we leaders can not discuss this issue in good faith with mutual respect, then what faith should I have in the nation to unite as individuals in a way neccessary for freedom to flourish?

To end the 'culture war' that has been thrust on us by misguided political leaders, we need to go back to the understanding of the founders and look at our history. For starters, I would highly suggest that everyone first get acquainted with the notion of the civic religion and how it differes from an actual religion which involves spirituality. Check out the Wikipedia article explaining this because it provides a perspective on many issues of our 'culture war'. http://en.wikipedia.o...

I sincerely hopes this provokes an interesting discussion.

Hello everyone,
I think you should ask Alex Wallenwein if he believes in individual
privacy, a topic that Ron Paul talks about. I sent him a private,
direct message and he felt obligated to reply to the entire group as
well as posting it on the message board. I feel as if my privacy has
been abused. I do not have an issue defending my position but is that
what the Ron Paul Prayer Network advocates?

Sincerely,
Jim McDaniel

Why doesn't Jim just leave already? Maybe he's actually working for the opponents. That's what any rational person who just stumbled in here and sees this garbage over and over would think.

Change it to NEOCONS for Ron Paul. It doesn't matter what the name is. I look for content and ideas on how to get Ron Paul elected. Think of it this way.

Rudy G supporters pray for Rudy G.
Ron Paul supporters pray for Ron Paul.

God isn't going to answer someone's prayers. So praying is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. If it was up to God, he wouldn't let the things happen that happen. It is up to US. If you want to leave the group, then leave the group. That doesn't help Ron Paul. What does help Ron Paul is that you quit wasting Alex's time by complaining and do something constructive.