Discussion re: Libertarian Party

CHRISTIANS AND JBS SUPPORTERS PLEASE TAKE NOTE.

Sorry if this is long-winded or overly exhaustive, however I have noticed that many on this forum are inclined to support the Libertarian Party. This is a concern to me and I feel compelled to comment. First off, the libertarians are right on many issues, and their platform is much better than is used to be. However, the core problem with libertarianism is that the philosophy refuses to acknowledge that our rights come God (like the Declaration of Independence states). Instead, it relies on the sovereignty of man and the false belief that liberty in and of itself is the answer to all our problems. The French tried this model of government in 1789, and the results were far from utopian.

Some quick commentary on the LP platform in general (www.lp.org):

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on both sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

The libertarians' stubborn refusal to recognize unborn children as human beings with the same constitutional rights as everyone else still baffles me. If we were talking about three-year olds, this insane argumentation flies out the window in about ten seconds. The only differences between an unborn child and a toddler are size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency (easily remembered as the S.L.E.D. argument).

Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Repeal the federal Defense of Marriage Act and state laws and amendments defining marriage.

Human beings did not invent the institution of marriage and people have no authority to redefine the institution to suit their deviant nature.

Individuals should have the right to use drugs, whether for medical or recreational purposes, without fear of legal reprisals, but must be held legally responsible for the consequences of their actions only if they violate others' rights.

Since when is drug use an inalienable right? Are we seriously advocating for cocaine to be made available at CVS? Should employers be forced to higher cocaine users? What about the dangers to children?

Again, the LP has come a long way. Ten years ago they advocated for 100% open borders including the elimination of the border patrol, coast guard, and INS. One has to wonder about political party whose platform can change so radically. Is based on principle or not?

OF MUCH GREATER CONCERN are statements and stands by current LP front-runner for president, Wayne Allyn Root (http://www.rootforame....

I support stem cell research - it is not government's job to stop valuable and critical medical research on disease based on extreme religious views.

This leftist, humanist language stands on its own merit and Mr. Root is showing his true colors regarding his opinion on Christianity. The viability of embryonic stem-cell research has not been proven, and even if it was, the prospect of creating human life for sole purpose of experimentation and destruction leads down some very slippery slopes. Life must begin at conception because it can't begin anywhere else.

I believe abortion is a matter of personal choice and not intended for federal government intervention. It is a States' Rights issue. Let's get the federal government out of a woman's right to choose what to do with their own body- this will prevent the death of innocent women at the hands of butchers in back-alleys.

I agree that the degree of federal involvement vs. state involvement in the abortion issue is a viable debate, but do us all a favor and drop the discredited Planned Parenthood rhetoric.

I believe global warming is a danger to our planet earth. I believe that we need to act to prevent further potential catastrophic damage to our planet. Rather I'd invest in what Newt Gingrich calls a "Scientific Revolution" that promotes capitalism and creates more jobs- through tax incentives that encourage new breakthroughs in science, space, alternative energy, and the environment.

SERIOUS RED FLAGS HERE! Any candidate who concedes that that man-made climate change is destroying the planet should cause anyone major reservation before supporting him. I'd also be wary of anyone advocating any idea emanating from Newt Gingrich. Using corporate tax-breaks for "mankind's advancement" is socialistic nonsense right out of the neo-con playbook.

I support providing a "Path to Citizenship" for 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants already here.

Maybe he should drop out and be McCain?s running mate.

I support drastically reduced & simplified federal taxes (flat tax)

SAY WHAT??? Since when do the libertarians support a flat tax and the retention of the IRS to collect it? Even Huckabee has more sense than this!

The Terri Schiavo Right to Die crisis should not have been a federal issue. Under my leadership, we will never again allow the federal government to interfere in personal decisions such as the freedom of individuals to choose to end their life with dignity.

At least Root dropped the religious extremist language from this portion of his platform. Terry Schiavo was not a comatose vegetable and she wasn't given a choice in her death (which was hardly dignified) -- she was murdered by her so-called husband with the state of Florida and city of Pinellas Park as accomplices.

And finally there is this quote: "Government screws up everything. If government says black, you can bet it's white. If government says sit still for your safety, you'd better run for your life!"

To make a blatant and childish generalization like this is irresponsible and insulting. Was anyone out driving during or after the blizzard? Is he insinuating that police and the legal system screw everything up? (taser-happy, woman-abusing, and anti-free speech cops and out-of--control prosecuters excepted) This stems back to the Thomas Paine view that civil government is a necessary evil. It's not, it is a God-ordained institution like marriage.

Again, the LP is certainly better than anything the dems or reps will produce this cycle. However worldview does matter, I would humbly suggest that some people on this forum think through some of these issues before jumping into the LPO full speed ahead. There are certainly huge deviations from what Ron Paul believes and advocates.

Thank you for your attention.

My sense is that there may be elements in most groups that we'll find unappealing- regardless of our faith. (ie: there may be "no perfect organization").

I believe the founding fathers understood Tyranny can manifest itself in many forms.....Religious, Secular, Political, Social or Economic. From my point of view The Grand Balance of Liberty must be weighed and measured. Our founding documents provide that balance and blue print for our Liberty.

Deceleration of Independence
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

1st Amendment
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

While servicing in the US. Military under NATO Allied Forces in Europe one lesson i learned For Me Religion and Government should be kept on equal but separate stations, just as the Night and Day are separate but equal.

Our Allied Forces NATO unit mascot or symbolism was Charlemagne based. Here is the History of the 1st Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire 800 A.D. Charlemagne was a Christian and he was also mass murder of his enemies who refused to convert to his Religion. Charlemagne conquered most of what we know as modern day Europe.

http://whc.unesco.org...

mms://stream.unesco.org/culture/nhk/Aachen-Germany.wmv

all good points here, but somehow we worked together for common goals over the last few months. As Ron Paul says, the Constitution brings people together. we are focused on slashing the federal government back to it's constitutionally mandated roles, and returning each state to the sovereign entity that was intended in the constitution. This idea of government decisions being made at the lowest level possible is actually taught in the Catholic catechism. I think it is not just compatible with Christianity, it is an essential part of it.

what I would like to do is try to prevent the looming collapse of America under the weight of the federal welfare and warfare state and restore the growth and greatness we once had. We can do this

Thanks James.

This is one of the big reasons that we are suggesting moving things forward under a large umbrella (Ohio Freedom Alliance) through which all of the splintered factions of the LP, CP, JBS, GOP, DEM, Gun Rights, Anti-War, etc. can work together toward the goals we do have in common, and promote "Ron Paul Republican" candidates for Congress, and then individuals can still supports groups and candidates on a local level that more closely align with their own values. The Freedom movement, I believe, has been ineffective up to this point largely because these diverse groups have been unable to work together.

I think we can all agree that a bloated federal government operating outside of its Constitutionally limited scope is the number one enemy to individual liberty and states rights. This is something people of every faith can agree upon.

Hi James,

I've posted my personal thoughts on your comments here:

http://liberatedself....

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Mr. Root is the LP front-runner (if you have some kind of polling data - please do post).

I look forward to hearing from the candidates first hand at the LPO convention coming up in April right here in Columbus.

Regards,
Mark Noble
Franklin County Libertarian Party Chair

I think also that if we were to screen political or even Christian organizations for Christian elements, someone's Christian sieve might be different than my Christian sieve-- our discernment/judgment might differ. This is what I mean by = there is no perfect organization.

Similar to suggesting all Christians should vote for Huckabee or vote Republican-- it may be incorrect to suggest that the godly thing is to work only with certain organizations.

fyi, There's an article (or two) in the Nolan report re:
"Christian Libertarianism Makes Sense for Ron Paul And for Me"
http://www.nolanchart...

Hello James,

I do share your concerns on the pro-life issue. But I must say that we all know the score here. Those gracious Libertarians, many of whom do not agree with you or I on this issue, still actively supported Ron Paul whose views are well known.

On stem cell research, do you take the position to prohibit in vitro fertilization? Yet it is exactly that practice that produces lots of "extra", "snowflake" embryos that leads proponents of embryonic stem cell research to call for federally mandated, taxpayer subsidized, experimentation. And yes all such stem cell research in this country is 100% legal, as long as it is not taxpayer subsidized and, technically, the human body parts or embryos are not bought or sold. But as we know this does go on. Do we need a constitutional amendment on each and every one of these things? Or do you, as I do, take note of Gonzales vs Carhart and say, the law that this court case defends is not perfect, it is a federal law, but it is a law that most citizens can agree with if it is presented rationally to them.

What about HUMANAE VITAE ? Those who are Catholic here, am I correct in saying that this is one of the chief issues dividing the Catholic Church today? I am only trying to make the point that even within the pro-life movement there are divisions. Do we need to return to the Syllabus of Errors at this late date? If so, I'm sure most Libertarians would have a few problems with that one.

Yes, these issues and others you raise do need to be discussed as they are important. But is today the best time for this? Today when we are trying to preserve the unity of support that Ron Paul inspires. Even now on the eve of the Pennsylvania primaries?

There is a time and a season. Let's count our blessings.

Sincerely,

Jim Byers

For me, James' message was an encouragement not to jump ship.

I personally wondered more about the Libertarian party. I was not very familiar with it. A friend of ours had stated that Libertarians are "anti-government" and that without proper government you would have caos. I didn't know what to think of that statement. Based on what I knew about Ron Paul, I knew he was not anti-government. Anyway, he was running as a Republican.

I appreciate James' comment:

However, the core problem with libertarianism is that the philosophy refuses to acknowledge that our rights come God (like the Declaration of Independence states). Instead, it relies on the sovereignty of man and the false belief that liberty in and of itself is the answer to all our problems.

I have no argument on stem cell to make here (I'm prolife and christian- but don't know stem cell well)- but had an interesting conversation with some students from Harvard Christian Fellowship several years back-- there was at least on med student in my group.. We were talking about the ethics of stem cell research. Something came to my mind
Leviticus 17:11 which Starts: 1'For the life of the flesh is in the blood

I just now googled - "life is in the blood" stem cell -

and an article popped up regarding this verse and topic from a website- religioustolerance.org

I'm not trying to promote the website or a viewpoint here except to admit that I don't know it all- but I'm open to learning-